tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post8777852261693768043..comments2024-01-04T20:23:59.249-05:00Comments on Hoosier Happenings: WWJD without RFRA?hoosier rebornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04401432969706851303noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post-60908441341966791212015-11-30T07:12:47.206-05:002015-11-30T07:12:47.206-05:00Thanks for your comments Duncan, I also hope you l...Thanks for your comments Duncan, I also hope you learned everything you cared to know about Higbee Corner. I understand how religious freedoms are extended to churches and pastors-I guess that wasn't so much my question on why would gay couples want them to provide services at a wedding, I was really thinking more along the line of situations of florists, pizza joints (though I'm still baffled by the notion of a pizza-catered wedding), etc. When my wife and I were married, I certainly wasn't going to contract with anyone who either didn't like us, or thought we shouldn't be getting married. We didn't have any situations like that, but I can think of other couples who have.<br /><br />My personal beliefs would lead me to respond in this way: I may not agree with what the couple is doing, but if you want me to bake a cake or take photos, I'm going to honor God by doing the best I can with the talents He's given me. I do have a small business, and I have provided services to a few gay couples over the years, the services aren't anything related to weddings but the thought never crossed my mind that even what I do offer somehow ran contrary to my beliefs. More than anything, I want people to see Christ in me...and sadly, I just don't think we have much of that in the church today.<br /><br />Thanks again for visiting Hoosier Happenings. My blogging has slowed to a mere trickle, but I hope to be back at it after the first of the year. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.hoosier rebornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04401432969706851303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post-79623586646739498412015-11-29T20:22:28.085-05:002015-11-29T20:22:28.085-05:00Once you get outside of this part of the issue, yo...<br />Once you get outside of this part of the issue, you get situations like Kim Davis' in Kentucky, the county clerk who refuses to issue civil marriage licenses to same-sex couples. That constitutes trying to force her religion on others, even other Christians. No matter what your beliefs, you can't impose them on the civil law; if someone can't do that -- a clerk, a JP, whoever -- they need to find another job. That's an issue that goes way beyond marriage or gay rights, as I know you realize. It means respecting the rights of non-Christians -- Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and others who are entitled to religious freedom as much as Christians are. Or even respecting the rights of other Christians outside one's sect. Since you're knowledgeable about US history, you'll know about Protestant hostility to Catholics in the US. That's why we have civil rights law.<br /><br />Sorry for the long comment, but I'm an educator (and a blogger) and I do run on. Thanks for your blog and your post, and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you.Duncan Mitchelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404037779521807223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post-56915263823990438312015-11-29T20:22:12.413-05:002015-11-29T20:22:12.413-05:00I'm a lifelong Hoosier, originally from the Pl...I'm a lifelong Hoosier, originally from the Plymouth area but living in Bloomington since the 1970s. (I happened on your blog while looking for information about Higbee Corner.) I'm also gay, and I was pleasantly surprised by the tone of your post and the position you take. Thanks for that! But I'd like to quibble, gently, with one passage:<br /><br />"Do I think that a preacher, organization, or individual should be forced to provide wedding services to a gay couple? No, honestly I don't. And frankly, this is what I don't get from the other side...........why would they want them to?"<br /><br />A lot of people have said the same thing, which reflects some serious confusion about this issue. On your first point: what the Supreme Court ruled this past summer was about <i>civil</i> marriage, and has no legal effect on preachers or churches. It entitles same-sex couples to get marriage licenses and get married at the courthouse, or by a Justice of the Peace. It doesn't entitle them to a church wedding. Churches aren't required by the law to marry any couple, straight or gay, who don't meet their sectarian requirements. A Roman Catholic church doesn't have to ratify the wedding of a Catholic and a non-Catholick for example, or allow a Catholic who's gotten a civil divorce to remarry in the church. (My parents had to jump through the right hoops to get a church wedding back in 1950, since my father wasn't Catholic; the same went for some other members of my family since then.) So no church will be required by law to preside over a same-sex wedding if they don't want to. I've known some gay people who don't get this, which only shows that we are not, unfortunately, smarter or better informed than anybody else.<br /><br />Which brings me to the second point: "Why would they want to?" you ask. Well, because many gay (and lesbian and bisexual and trans) people <i>are religious</i>. I mentioned early that no church can legally be forced to preside over a same-sex wedding if they don't want to. But quite a few churches do want to. I hope you're aware that numerous major denominations have been discussing and praying over and arguing about the status of their gay members since the 1960s at least, and some of them now recognize same-sex unions or even marriages. (Yes, this goes against a lot of Christian tradition and biblical teaching, but so does the increasing religious acceptance of heterosexual divorce and remarriage even in some of the more conservative denominations -- even though Jesus specifically spoke against it.) So it's not unreasonable that many gay people, perhaps more than you realize, <i>would</i> want a church wedding. But they'll have to work within their churches, as they have been doing, instead of bringing the government into it. I'm an atheist myself, so this doesn't affect me personally, but I am involved in sexuality education down here and I often have to educate my fellow gay people about what they can and can't do.Duncan Mitchelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404037779521807223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post-76113697988235477232015-04-05T17:56:54.100-04:002015-04-05T17:56:54.100-04:00I think the most troubling thing is the contrast t...I think the most troubling thing is the contrast this week between supposed persecution of Memories Pizza and true persecution of the Christian Kenyan college students. Puts it into perspective, especially when Memories is walking away with nearly a million dollars thanks to the Blaze.hoosier rebornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04401432969706851303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post-21288181677724042882015-04-04T10:10:07.281-04:002015-04-04T10:10:07.281-04:00In the last blog I misspelled Muslim, that was a m...In the last blog I misspelled Muslim, that was a mistake and I apologize.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post-85254285125548058452015-04-04T10:07:35.148-04:002015-04-04T10:07:35.148-04:00If the bill only protected the rights of Muslin to...If the bill only protected the rights of Muslin to refuse service to a Jew, you would have heard crickets, if it only protected the rights of black citizens to refuse service to KKK members, even more crickets.But the bill protects the rights of anyone (to the media this means whites only) to refuse service based on PROVABLE religious conviction. If you want to blame anyone, blame the real problem, the hype hungry media for misrepresenting anything that might sell a newspaper regardless of facts. I think the bill is silly, the rights of private business owners should never be in question. I also think that refusing to take a patrons money, especially when the economy is in the tank is a bad idea. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5881186371752795468.post-66608922865484893612015-04-02T22:52:23.008-04:002015-04-02T22:52:23.008-04:00To many right wingers at the statehouse! To many right wingers at the statehouse! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com